Anyone heard of such cheating ways as this?

[The Fox]

Apologies for the essay in advance...

A DJ that myself and Pete Waidson know, posted on Facebook a link to his tune the other day (first one). Telling all to check out his new release on beatport. Firstly this guy is a rubbish DJ and secondly, since when did he produce and thirdly how the hell has he got on beatport, he must be lying?!

We checked out the link and it was all true. Listened to the track, decent track. Really well produced. Pete decides to message him. After all he could share some knowledge and would be interesting to talk to him about how he did it all etc.

Turns out, this bloke has paid an engineer to put "what he likes" into logic. He doesnt even know how to use Logic?! Can you believe that?! He played the engineer some examples of music he likes and then just told him where he would like certain parts in the arrangement and if he could create stuff for him. WTF?!!!!!

So basically he hasnt got a clue how to do it, has paid someone to do it and is now on beatport. Anyone heard of anything quite like this? and finally why would an engineer do this for him when it could be his tune?

Sorry for the essay but I found this too incredible for words. :mad:

[Pete Waidson]

Also mentioned that he played a set somewhere the same night as Hoxton Whores and gave them a copy of 'his' tune. They liked it and is now released on beatport on their label 'Whore House'. Heres the direct link..

https://www.beatport.com/en-US/html/content/release/detail/240673/verano#app=767f&a486-index=0

I simply cant believe this and am furious. Thousands of us are grafting in the studio, learning and developing our skills and sound to hopefully make decent productions and maybe get some exposure in the industry.

Im angry and baffled??!!

[TheSqueezer]

You would be surprised on how much famous dj´s/producers do that, and even other famous producers producing for other producers..

Instantly 2 names come to my mind, just check FM magazine dvd In the Studio.. and in the last year you will find some names that just seat on the chair and give orders to the guy who is producing and in the end its their name on the track.
I myself dont accept this kind of thing but..well, the guys who produce do it because they want and get pay for that...and we also have to see other thing, the guy who really produces the track may not have the ideas to make a good track, just the knowledge, and the ´´famous`` guy doesnt have the knowledge but has the ideas...

This can be a very good discussion, specially cause its beeing made on a famous Dj/Producer forum... :D:D

[erol1988]

I bet this goes on a hell of a lot although we don't hear about it so much.
I think it boils down to, how much collaboration is going on.

If its a case of, go and make me a track here is x amount, then IMHO thats pretty bad. If there is input throughout the production process, i guess thats ok to an extent.

Just a little annoying the number of countless hours most of us are putting in, I've had a few remixes on a couple of big labels on beatport and the satisfaction of making something from scratch, just can't be beaten.

[TonyTownsend]

I don't agree either, But in every other genre of music the producer tells and engineer what to do. In Movies producers tell directors what to do. So Its not to far off I guess?

[Seegeemusic]

Seems to be the norm thing to do now days to get your "big" break. Happens alot within the trance scene I find the most. Very annoying thing I find when you know the person hasn't produced the track but makes out it's all his/hers work, or they say it was a "colab" between them and the engineer to make them look like they had some input on the track.

[Definity]

a producer dosent even ahve to know how to play an isntrument or how to work a desk atall, his job is jsut to know what sounds good and what does not. Whyt he hell do you think simon cowel is a producer. in my eyes that not what a producer is but in socity it is actualy someone who tell people what to do. some who writes music is an artist

[J-Bone]

Happens all the time in the literary world. Ghost-writing...

[hotry]

oh... some interesting topic for discussion you have here. i don't want to go on rumors and bollocks, but I've heard this countless times about many producers, so that seems to be normal practise around. There are much more decent producers=engineers around, though. anyways i share the feelings you have about this guy, as most of us here trying to get good sounding by ourselves and that's by many times more difficult to have ideas and have knowledge to put them on DAW and make them together bang the floor. so don't be envy and better keep your force for your current and further productions

[hotry]

btw, anyone got contacts of a good engineer?... i have some stunningly breakthrough ideas :P

[TheSqueezer]

Maybe someone will not like what i will say, but i think we should not talk in particular producers names..
This is not just a normal electronic music forum, its a well known DJ/PRODUCER forum and in my point of view its not good to be talking name X or Y saying they pay others to produce their work..
Meantime, if we talk in general this can very well be a very good arguing thread :D

[meanstreetsmusic]

Hi guys.. Not to throw a wrench in it but I would really like it if this forum stay tech centric and producer centric, friendly and positive. I likely doesn't serve anyone here to have us rant about what we hate or don't hate.

But since I am adding my two cents here goes:

Keep producing, keep growing, keep learning. And if you are and lucky and talented that same guy (or someone like him) will hire you to engineer a track and you can get paid. To each his own. It took some good judgment for that person to hire that engineer and decide to try to sign that track, that is something that till takes some brains and an ear for music and alot of vision..

FYI. Most engineers/producers are responsible for an artists sound. I.E Bell/Bjork, Eno/U2, Timbaland/everyone, etc.

So just focus on growing as a producer and someday you may be the sick ass hot shot that everyone is throwing money at to produce their tracks..


Lets get back to keeping this forum positive..
In spirit,
Carlos da Silva (Mean Streets)

[meanstreetsmusic]

I agree also about this.. You may be surprised at what a small social circle the world of producers are.

[The Fox]

btw, anyone got contacts of a good engineer?... i have some stunningly breakthrough ideas :P

Well now I can find out for you... ha ha ;-)

[The Fox]

Maybe someone will not like what i will say, but i think we should not talk in particular producers names..
This is not just a normal electronic music forum, its a well known DJ/PRODUCER forum and in my point of view its not good to be talking name X or Y saying they pay others to produce their work..
Meantime, if we talk in general this can very well be a very good arguing thread :D

I was thinking the same thing. I didnt intend for name dropping more a general conversation :D

[cjj]

I'm not sure about this. Why can't you drop producer names>? I think its interesting to know who does what and real credit needs to be given to those who really know what they are doing.

This is not to say that the likes of Tiesto don't come up with great ideas, they do, hes put together some massive tracks whether he was the engineer or not. The point is, the area that we are commonly interested in is the building blocks and shaping of the sound. Thats why we're on this site.

However I do think its good to know who does and doesn't know their stuff regards audio production. Its an art in itself to get tracks sounding super sharp and theres nothing more sickening than to look up to someone only to find out they're not quite as able as you thought they were.

[ICN]

Well I'm not surprised.

Rumours have been going around for years about ex & current Radio DJ's.. Also a couple of Techno DJ's.. & their "Ghost" producers. Goes on everywhere.

No point naming them - everyone knows who they are.

Great business card for DJ'ing.. Might not be aesthetically pure - but sure why not!?

Some other Gimp will only do it.

Anyway - its a Win/Win situation. DJ gets Tracks.. Producers get experience, exposure, contacts etc..

I'm absolutely positive that the embarrassed red cheeks will return to normal when the cheques are cashed! However, it would still be something that would make your balls hide up in your mouth. Imagine the worry of someone saying it to you.

I dont agree with it though. They're all going to hell. I'll probably see them there Lads - So I'll tell them whats what for all of y'all that dont make it! ; )

[scottb]

I don't think talking negatively about producers in a forum run by a top producer is wise. It probably won't do Deans reputation any good even though it's not him saying anything.
Some of these people might be is friends, don't think I'd want that if it was my forum.

Interesting subject though =)

Reminds me of famous person who decided he/she was a DJ. Got gigs cos he/she is famous. Got caught out when there was a power cut. When the power came back the DJ's set started from the beginning again hehe! Not bad getting a pocket full of money for playing a CD!! sickening :(

[hotry]

Maybe someone will not like what i will say, but i think we should not talk in particular producers names..
This is not just a normal electronic music forum, its a well known DJ/PRODUCER forum and in my point of view its not good to be talking name X or Y saying they pay others to produce their work..
Meantime, if we talk in general this can very well be a very good arguing thread :D
yeah bro you're right, it was not appropriate... i've edited my message and removed their names.

[jon_fisher]

Benny Benassi has been doing this for years, although Benny i'm sure has a hell of a lot of input into the arrangement and sounds.

Tony De Vit did it most of his career (Simon Parkes was his producer)

i'm sure Dean probably from time to time gets other "Co-Producers" to finish up tracks for him with such a full on schedule

[ICN]

Another point.

Is that these Guys probably/possibly/hopefully (if they want to avoid an eternity of flames.. LOL) will pick up production themselves eventually anyway.. and in a way they're learning as they go along, just its more immeadiate obviously.

Its so not credible though. But like others have said, its been around since year dot.

I dont think its the ideal by a long shot - but fair play in a way. Theres something more fun about music when its just happening & you are not getting bogged down in it. At least they have the satisfaction of proving to themselves maybe that they do have a good ear & maybe that'll encourage them to take it further. It would have to.. how could you not want to take it further!!! :D

[ICN]

i'm sure Dean probably from time to time gets other "Co-Producers" to finish up tracks for him with such a full on schedule

But with that scenario its not a case of the "Cart before the Horse".

[tomflynn]

I don't see why this would surprise you, i know of quite a few 'big named' producers who have ghost writers.
I was offered a lot of money to be a certain dj's 'ghost producer' about a month ago when i was playing in london, deal was i would write the records, he would get the big gigs as he was really well connected, and i would get 20% of all gig fees and keep the sales of the records.
I said i just couldn't do it, i want people to know me for my work.

Don't let it annoy you, keep doing your thing and you'll be much happier. :)

[cjj]

Benni Benassi? I think you'll find the Benassi brothers are actually pretty hot at their production. One does the production, one does the DJing, its just the way they work. The input comes from both of them, but their productions are done by themselves I believe.

Hadn't thought about the fact Ramirez might know these guys so thats a fair point, still, I don't think theres too much of a problem with it. If you've got some really solid ideas that you want to put into a track that eventually ends up sending a dance floor mental, would we not all lost out if the track was just never made instead?

[ICN]

I don't see why this would surprise you, i know of quite a few 'big named' producers who have ghost writers.
I was offered a lot of money to be a certain dj's 'ghost producer' about a month ago when i was playing in london, deal was i would write the records, he would get the big gigs as he was really well connected, and i would get 20% of all gig fees and keep the sales of the records.
I said i just couldn't do it, i want people to know me for my work.

Don't let it annoy you, keep doing your thing and you'll be much happier. :)

You're a purist Tom - Fair play! :)

I've got a Time Machine if you ever change your mind! LOL :cool:

[The Fox]

I don't see why this would surprise you, i know of quite a few 'big named' producers who have ghost writers.
I was offered a lot of money to be a certain dj's 'ghost producer' about a month ago when i was playing in london, deal was i would write the records, he would get the big gigs as he was really well connected, and i would get 20% of all gig fees and keep the sales of the records.
I said i just couldn't do it, i want people to know me for my work.

Don't let it annoy you, keep doing your thing and you'll be much happier. :)

Cheers Tom. Interesting to hear all the different angles people get into the market. I'm a newbie to all off this and didnt know this existed or was a valid option hence me raising it as a topic. Forgive my ignorance :-)

I definitely wont be taking that option but each to their own for sure.

[ICN]

..This bloke has paid an engineer to put "what he likes" into logic. He doesnt even know how to use Logic?! Can you believe that?! He played the engineer some examples of music he likes and then just told him where he would like certain parts in the arrangement and if he could create stuff for him. WTF?!!!!!

So basically he hasnt got a clue how to do it, has paid someone to do it and is now on beatport.

http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/6367/nooon.jpg

:D

[Kristoph]

Happens a lot - I've taken a lump sum for engineering entire records before, I don't have any real problem with it. I know quite a few DJs who all go to the same engineers, hand over their £250-£400 and leave 4 hours later with a record. I sometimes find a lot of tracks by the same engineer have a certain sound to them, to the point that you can often identify the engineer just by the sound of the mixdown and the drums etc - my guess is that this is because they generally want you in and out within 4 hours, so some stuff is bound to be comprimised somewhere down the line.

If people want to pay engineers to make their tracks for them, it's their own choice, and if those engineers want to make a few hundred quid 7 days a week, every week, who are we to tell them it's wrong? they're probably making more week in week out than most of us!

I prefer to work as a collaborator, and everyone I'm working with these days has a serious amount of input into the final product. Some records end up with my name on, some don't... Definitely doing more solo material this year though :)

[Kristoph]

also, moved to general....

[ICN]

Yup - Does happen obviously, but probably the thing that stings most is "as a Fan.." when you find out this Creativity is not coming from the person you thought.

Looking at it from that side of the fence - its cheating alright.

From this side - Its ok! Haha!

[tomflynn]

Personally i love to get up to my waist in manuals, knobs, buttons, and faders! I like to be in control of my stuff.
If you guys get time - have a peek at my question in the dj section, i could use a little help :D

[TheSqueezer]

I don't think talking negatively about producers in a forum run by a top producer is wise. It probably won't do Deans reputation any good even though it's not him saying anything.
Some of these people might be is friends, don't think I'd want that if it was my forum.

Thats was exactly my point. I dont want you guys to think i was trying to shut up this subject, cause i was not.
As you know, unfortunelly music business is made of interests and lobbys and its just not fair for Dean having is forum associated as a place where people talk negatively about producer X or Y.

Now back to topic :D
Like i said, this happens a loooooot, more than you can imagine. For example, in the last years in the more electronic Pop music who do you think produces the tracks of famous singers or bands?? not the singers or bands themself...(in some cases yes). Truth is, most of the tracks are made by dance producers. The diference is that singers and bands do participate in the track on several ways, wich doesnt happen on dance tracks.

We have to see this as a way of life and a personal choice of the producer/engineer.
And like Kristoph said, most of this producers/engineers give a final product that they know it will only last some months on people ears..so that the guy who payed him once comes back and pays him again.

Is this legal: yes
Do i like it: NOOOOOOOO
Do i accept it: i have to

[chrisrawles]

I have heard of this and I know a producer that does ghost write which im not going to name but lets take a view as it being a job..

Yes many of us spend hours. months and years learning how to do all this production stuff.

But

If someone offered me say £300 to help them write a track with their ideas I wouldn't say no. Reason for this.... I have bills to pay.

These ghost writters are not cheap and my price above is probaly nothing compared to what they charge.

But if you could do this on a daily basis imagine how much money you could make?

there is also nothing stopping you from then making your own stuff as well is there......

[chekka]

in principle it sounds bad - my first reaction is like oh my god!

but i suppose it depends how much input someone has

if billy big name just says heres a grand write me a track an ill put my name on it - then yes thats a bit fraudulent

if he says i want it to go like swoosh here and de de de there etc and is voicing a sort of arrangement and describing sounds to the person who has the technical knowledge to transcribe that into actual music.......

then it sounds like james brown and bobby byrd writing some of the most awe inspiring music ever

[lmc1dj]

The worst thing about it is the cheeky blighters that actually make it out as if they made the track themselves,,,,,,,,
FAIR ENOUGH IF THEY PUT THERE HANDS UP AND ACTUALLY SAID YES,,I JUST SAT IN THE STUDIO WITH THE ENGINEER,,,,,,,,

The leeds scene of wannabe producers is really bad for that......
far too many people wanting to get there five minutes of fame,,,,,,
i could sit here for hours discussing this,,,,,,,,,,
but i wont,,,,instead i will sit here for hours with logic n come up with a formula that will help evolve the revolution of music- not dissolve it

TODAYS MOTTO COURTESY OF ME.

REVOLVE - DONT DISSOLVE.

[Point Zero]

Having a engineer is a fact for lots of big boys to.... most dj's at a top level dont have or make the time to learn all the toolz in the trade.

What i have bin trought was similar, a fellow dj and friend ( he wasnt really ) asked me to help him with FL studio the DAW i use, so i started making a track and he was looking and learning ......not really, after a while i said u know what i will finish it for u and then u know how it works.
He said offcourse yes please, me as the good trusty guy that i am sent him the complete track as a FLP file so he would have the project for learning.
After a while i looked at his profile of myspace and saw the track... released under his own name....

So yeah some people are fake.. but yeah the next track is his own problem hahahaa.

Greetz Andy ( sorry for my english )

[Bescheerer]

The worst thing about it is the cheeky blighters that actually make it out as if they made the track themselves,,,,,,,,
FAIR ENOUGH IF THEY PUT THERE HANDS UP AND ACTUALLY SAID YES,,I JUST SAT IN THE STUDIO WITH THE ENGINEER,,,,,,,,

The leeds scene of wannabe producers is really bad for that......
far too many people wanting to get there five minutes of fame,,,,,,
i could sit here for hours discussing this,,,,,,,,,,
but i wont,,,,instead i will sit here for hours with logic n come up with a formula that will help evolve the revolution of music- not dissolve it

TODAYS MOTTO COURTESY OF ME.

REVOLVE - DONT DISSOLVE.

haha who are these Leeds people you speak of? I've been in Leeds for a few years and could name a few

[lmc1dj]

there is lots and lots my friend......it not hard to find out,,,ahah,,,,,